Dec 15, 2023
In this week’s episode, I chatted with Dr. Renée Lertzman, a renowned psychological researcher shaping climate change action through psychology and sustainability.
We discussed the theme 'Becoming' and its impact on societal shifts towards sustainable practices and also explored the transformative power of personal change for a more humane business world and the vital role of community in this journey.
Renée shared challenges faced by leaders guiding transformations and her nuanced approach to caring in Humane Marketing.
In this episode, Renée and I talk about:
- How do personal transformations contribute to a better, more humane business world for everyone?
- Why is being part of a community important for personal and collective positive transformations?
- What challenges do leaders face when guiding others through transformative journeys?
- In Humane Marketing, caring means more than just concern. Renee explains her approach to caring.
- And more insights for our listeners who are Changemakers before they are marketers
Sarah: [00:00:00] Hello, Humane Marketers. Welcome back to the Humane Marketing Podcast, the place to be for the generation of marketers that cares. This is a show where we talk about running your business in a way that feels good to you, is aligned with your values, and also resonates with today's conscious customers because it's humane, ethical, and non pushy.
I'm Sarah Zanacroce, your hippie turned business coach for quietly rebellious entrepreneurs and marketing impact pioneers. Mama bear of the humane marketing circle and renegade author of marketing like we're human and selling like we're human. If after listening to the show for a while, you're ready to move on to the next level and start implementing and would welcome a community of like minded, quietly rebellious entrepreneurs who discuss with transparency what Works and what doesn't work in business, then we'd love to welcome you in our humane marketing circle.
If you're picturing your [00:01:00] typical Facebook group, let me paint a new picture for you. This is a closed community of like minded entrepreneurs from all over the world who come together once per month in a zoom circle workshop to hold each other accountable and build their business in a sustainable way.
We share with transparency and vulnerability, what works for us and what doesn't work. So that you can figure out what works for you instead of keep throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks. Find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And if you prefer one on one support from me, my humane business coaching could be just what you need.
Whether it's for your marketing, sales, general business building, or help with your big idea like writing a book, I'd love to share my brain and my heart with you together with my almost 15 years business experience. experience and help you grow a sustainable business that is joyful and sustainable. If you love this [00:02:00] podcast, wait until I show you my mama bear qualities as my one on one client.
You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash coaching. And finally, if you are a marketing impact pioneer and would like to bring humane marketing to your organization, have a look at my offers and workshops on my website at humane. Dot marketing.
Hello and welcome back Humane Marketers to this last episode in 2023. Today I'm speaking to Rene Lertzmann about the P of personal power. If you're a regular here and you've been with me all of this time this year, you know that I'm organizing the conversations around the seven P's of the Humane Marketing Mandala.
And if this is your first time here and you don't know what I'm talking about, you can download your one page marketing [00:03:00] plan with the Humane Marketing version of the seven P's of Marketing at humane.
That's the number one and the word page and this comes with seven email prompts to really help you reflect on these different P's for your business. It really is that one page marketing plan where you. Reflect deeply about all the different P's in your business. Today's conversation, as I said, fits under the P of personal power.
And I speak to Renee Lertzman about the topic of becoming. So let me tell you a bit more about Dr. Renee Lertzman. She's an internationally recognized psychological researcher and thought leader. Working to make an impact on climate change with tools that organizations can use to engage, mobilize, and connect with diverse populations.
By blending scientific approaches into strategies that will be [00:04:00] impactful on the environmental challenges, Rene shows that combining the disciplines of psychological Psychology with environmental science can aid in the path of big changes. A native of Northern California, Renée has had more than 20 years of experience as a pioneer, bridging psychological research and sustainability.
She integrates behavioral social Social and Innovative Design Sciences to Create a Dynamic Approach to Social Change. She holds a Master's Degree in Environmental Communications from the University of North Carolina and a PhD from the Cardiff School of Social Sciences at Cardiff University, UK. In our conversation today, we talked about how do personal transformations contribute to a better, more humane business world for everyone?
Why is being part of a community important for personal [00:05:00] and collective positive transformations? What challenges do leaders face when guiding others through this transformative journey? In humane marketing, caring means more than just concern. And Renee explains to us her approach to caring. And there's also more insights for our listeners who are change makers before they are marketers.
So let's dive in and listen to this episode with Renee Lertzmann.
Hi, Renee. So good to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us on the Humane Marketing Podcast. Good
Renee: to be here. Thank
Sarah: you. Um, um, yeah, humane marketing and becoming, uh, all of these topics that you talk about in your work are very much in line with what we're talking about here, this idea of marketing from within.
Um, so really starting with ourselves. So, [00:06:00] um, how do you see these personal transformations on this? Individual level, then translating into something that is bigger, you know, that is part of the collective and maybe even the business part, um, let's dive right in there.
Renee: It's a small question. Um, well, that's a profound question that I experienced to be, uh.
You know, innately, it takes me into the terrain of psychology, which is, you know, obviously my training and my background, um, which is the, the psyche. Um, how do we, um, process, you know, uh, information, our experiences in ways that. Um, can support our ability to act in new and different ways. Um, so I guess I would just say that [00:07:00] there and I mentioned this in my Ted talk where, um, there's no way around it.
You know, that there's no way around the inner and the outer and I remember giving the talk on stage and ad libbing a little bit, which you're not supposed to, but I remember making this statement that said, basically, um, our inner world and our inner life is directly influencing how we are in the world and what we do.
And then I made this comment, I'm sorry, but there's no way around it. And that is to say, you know, we'd like to think that we can do a lot of work in the world, um, you know, by focusing on our actions or, you know, um, our tactics, our strategy, but in actuality, as you know, um, everything we do is an expression of our [00:08:00] inner world and ourself, which is obviously influenced by, You know, um, our social context, our geography, our demographic, our personal biography, our circumstances, our proclivities, our personality, um, our inherent kind of essence, all of that is, is coming together.
Um, and the work, you know, the, the, the work in the world of, you know, ushering in and supporting life. Affirming and life supportive systems for the planet. Um, I see relying on our ability as human beings to, um, level up to, to become more conscious, to become more, um, capable of coming from a place of intention and choice versus unconscious [00:09:00] habits.
Defaults, um, fear, you know, all of that. So my reframe that I encourage is that the circumstances that we're facing in our world is an opportunity. It's an invitation and in a lot of ways, a requirement for us as human beings to, uh, evolve. Um, and, and by that, I mean, really, really evolve into our, like, higher selves, our highest good, the higher part.
That humans are capable of, that's how I see it. So, you know, unless we put attention and intention to our own wounds, our own trauma, our own, um, stuff that each human being has, we all have it, you know, there, there, [00:10:00] those that has to be side by side with how you show up with a team as a leader, with your marketing strategy.
Because if there's, you know, whatever is there will come through. So if I'm coming from a place that I've learned the hard way, if I am coming from a place of fear, of, um, you know, anxiety, of depth, of scarcity. Even a beautifully designed campaign somehow that will come through and so it's sort of on me to practice diligence around that.
Yeah, I love
Sarah: that. And you work a lot in the sustainability field and that applies there, right? That you have to first do this inner work in order to then help the other and help. [00:11:00] Organizations, you know, pay more attention to climate crisis and et cetera. Um, and it applies like you just demonstrated also in a business and marketing sense, because when I 1st looked at marketing, um.
Well, when I had my own little crisis and said, well, I can't do this anymore. There's just no integrity in this. Um, I looked at how marketing is usually presented as something outwards, right? It's out there and you just have to somehow fit into that mold in order to be that person that you're supposed to be, um, in this marketing realm.
And, and that I just realized, well, that is not working for me anymore. It has to be, uh, according to who I am and my worldview and my values. And so the kind of like the, the consciousness that, um, needs to evolve is also needs to happen on the marketing, [00:12:00] um, side. Especially because I think so much that we see out there is, you know, people have gotten such a bad experience with marketing.
Everything is lies. We can't trust a marketer. And so the people who are then kind of went to authentic marketing. Uh, we still realized, well, not everything that they say is authentic marketing was actually authentic because they hadn't done that in their work, right? So it, it really, I see these parallels between also what you talk about this anxiety and scarcity.
Well, yeah, if we come from this scarcity mindset that we feel like, well, there's not enough, I need to hustle to get these clients, clients feel it.
Renee: Right. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's where the inner work comes in. You don't, you can't just will yourself or say, okay, I'm going to not do that anymore.
You have to really, um, cultivate the conditions somehow [00:13:00] to, to, um, Explore and be with what is happening for you and ideally have support, some resourcing to do that. Um, the only thing I would just say is I don't think it's like we have to do the inner work first before we do work in the world. It's it's it's they, they are inseparable and I get kind of tired of this, you know, binary, well, binaries in general are still very alive and active out there.
Right. Hope versus despair. Um, you know, inner versus outer. Um, it's, it's like, that's just not how reality is. And so when, when people, when our stakes are high and we're under stress, that's precisely when we tend to go into binary thinking. Right. And so it's just important to recognize that. Um, it's not the inner or the [00:14:00] outer.
It's not inter first, then outer, you know, and again, this goes back to what we already know, whether you look at neuroscience or whether you look at trauma research, or whether you look at contemplative practice, um, that it's, it's, there's a lot of healing that is available. By the act of doing and, and engaging with some sort of practice, like writing something or doing something in the community or launching a business.
Right? That's literally grist for the mill for our learning and practice and development. So, you know, me doing my work with clients, you know, it's, it's an opportunity to grow always. It's a, it's a. That that is the work that is the practice, you know,
Sarah: I feel like oftentimes the people who come to me, they had to go through the things that are not working for them in order to figure out, well, this is not working for me [00:15:00] anymore.
And so now I'm ready for a different way. Yeah, I feel that's often the case
Renee: right that's what that is the human experience I think. Yeah, there's just no shortcuts. Yeah, it's like literally learning by what isn't working and paying attention to this isn't feeling good This isn't working for me. Okay. Now, what does that mean?
What do I want to do about that? I could stay there or I can you know get in touch with where my desire is where my Joy is where I feel Energy and called towards, but we can only get there. Unfortunately, by the pain of this is not feeling good. This is not working. I'm having a crisis. I need to leave my job.
I need to quit this industry. I might need to move countries, you know, I'm, I'm like, like, there's usually people get to a certain point where they're just like. The, the misalignment is too big for me to tolerate right [00:16:00] now, or I have to leave a relationship who, you know, a lot of people are in partnerships where maybe they've come to a place of awakening and the partner or family member isn't there, you know, like that's very real and that happens a lot too.
So, you know, I'm, I'm just normalizing. The experience of, oh, this isn't working. Okay. Then what do I need to do differently? And what will support me? Because it's really important. People. Recognize we need support. Um,
Sarah: exactly. Let's talk about the support because I remember when I 1st went through my breakdown.
I didn't feel like there was people who understood what I was trying to do and what I was even talking about. They're like, what's wrong with marketing? Marketing is fine. You know, this is just how business works. Business is business. And, and I'm like, well, it doesn't have to be, but I didn't feel [00:17:00] like any, anybody understood.
Right. Yeah. And so that makes you feel very lonely and wrong. You're constantly questioning yourself. Yeah. And so then slowly. Yeah. I started to change my people. I'm like, okay, well this is not supporting me. Yeah. So, uh, and, and in that workshop that I just followed with you, um, it was a small group of women in change.
Yeah. And you, at the be very beginning, you said, this is what matters. Small groups like this is what matters. Right. So, so yeah. What, what is the role of community in this transformation?
Renee: Well, um, this is something I. I feel very strongly about and I am starting to write and focus on more and more. In fact, it might end up being my primary focus, which is the role of convening and curation.
So my, you know, just to zoom back. I have a project called project inside out, which was started by a grant from the care foundation. [00:18:00] Um, and I was asked to put together some online tools and resources that take a lot of my work and kind of bring it together into some tools that anyone can access and use.
And so, in doing that, I kind of formulated this idea that. What we need to be doing is guiding and not driving change. And so it's an attempt to do an intervention. And, um, and so we came up with these guiding principles of guiding, you know, and a, and a main, a primary role of that is to be a convener. And so I, um, the organizations, the clients I work with and more generally.
You know, in my kind of work in the world, I'm, I'm basically telling people that if you are an organization, if you have a business, if you have an [00:19:00] enterprise, it's your role now to be more of a convener and together and to take that responsibility very seriously. And that means as a curator, you have to be also attentive to your own, what we were just talking about, like your own development, your own, um, integrity.
Because when you're a convener, it's a responsibility, um, but my point is that, um, it's in the context of relationship and usually small groups that a lot of transformation can happen. And so, and I'm not, I didn't just sort of come up with this. This is like, incredibly well established. You know, there's a book called pro social that talks about the research, you know, like, in a very specific way.
Like, if you have this number of people, you know, I think it's 8 to 12 people and you bring people together over [00:20:00] duration. Like, you know, we already kind of know this. And I was doing this work in 2001, um, an experiment. Using online dialogue where we put people into small groups online and kind of had them together over time.
No facilitation, but we had a certain methodology where people, you know, introduce themselves and, you know, but the, that context was specifically about charged hot button issues, social issues, and it worked like amazingly people did not devolve into fighting because we created these conditions. That enabled people to really listen to each other and be, feel heard and learn and kind of have that exchange.
So we already know a lot about what works. Um, so what I'm suggesting is we go back and look at what actually works. To support people through transformation that human societies have been doing since the beginning. [00:21:00] So, again, I'm not suggesting this is anything new. I'm saying that human wisdom practices and, you know, if you look at council, the council and indigenous cultures, and you look at circles and you look at, like, humans have had this practice of coming together in hard times, ideally.
Not always it's how functional and healthy the society is to say, Hey, we need to look at what's going on. And then, like, people just naturally need to get together to kind of make sense, debate, argue, you know, have that kind of exchange that can support a different. Way or perspective, but you're also getting a lot of support.
So, yeah, it's so
Sarah: interesting. Um, if I may, um, just make the parallel again to the business and marketing world, right in business and marketing, everything we ever hear is go big, go scale or go home. And, you know, you need to be an [00:22:00] influencer and then numbers is what matters most. And, and so here you are saying, well, actually.
No, not necessarily go back. You know, uh, small is beautiful. Um, more intimate, the deeper the connection. Yeah. And so that
Renee: is scalable. It
audio1097513299: is
Sarah: scalable at the same time. Right? Yeah. Yeah.
Renee: Like, I mean, people ask me, well, how do you scale this? It sounds very long and slow and relational. And I, Well, have you heard of the 12 step movement?
I kind of think that's very successful and it's very, uh, talk about scale. It's completely global and the methodology is literally Holding space for people to come together and primarily just tell their stories with each other. And then, you know, you've got all the spiritual principles. It's very regimented.
It's very structured, but I'm just saying, I'm not saying we all need to have [00:23:00] 12 step groups. I'm saying that small group interactions are scalable if you're a skillful convener. And so any company I'm working with. They're going to know I'm going to recommend this. It's not a surprise. It's sort of like, you know, if you bring someone in and have someone has their thing.
It's like, okay, we know pretty much what's going to be recommended. Renee is going to say that. I'm going to say you need to approach your work in an organization by leveraging the people within it. To hold and facilitate small groups. Yeah, I love that. Train people and support people to learn the skills of convening small groups.
Yeah. That to me is the number one skill right now that we are needing and that often people don't have. And, you know, if anyone listening is a facilitator, you know how hard it is. And how, uh, like [00:24:00] it really is. Um, a very, you know, nuanced kind of thing, uh, to learn and any, and I believe we can learn it, but in order to be a facilitator, it goes right back to how do we cultivate the capacity, you know, to really be present because the ability to hold space and be facilitator requires that you have to get out of your, you have to step back.
You can't dominate. You know, we've all been in settings where people are like. Dominating, they're talking too much. Um, so, you know, that's, that's where I go with this is how do we foster, create the conditions for more people to connect with each other in more intimate ways, but also look at how we can scale that.
Sarah: I love that. Yeah. I did a year long program called holding space and it really came from that idea of, well, how do you hold space for yourself? So [00:25:00] that was the first module of. I can't remember, four months or something. And then how do you hold space for others? And, and especially there was also a module, how do you hold space for grief, right?
So, yeah. And so do you feel like we kind of met through the inner development goals? Um, do you feel those inner development goals skills help with this idea of holding space for
Renee: others? Oh, definitely. Yeah. I mean, the IDG is a, you know, it's a very simple, elegant framework that I see as a reminder of what we need to be doing.
Right. Uh, being, thinking, relating, acting and collaborating. So, you know, all of those are interrelated because in order to be a skillful collaborator, you need to have being in order to be a skillful thinker. You need, you know what I mean? They all kind of. Relate to 1 another, but, um, to me, the [00:26:00] power of the is mainly as a.
In vocation to say, hey, we need to look at our skills as human beings, like how we from a developmental perspective and how you do that. It doesn't matter to me, you know, like, there can be a community literally in Nigeria, which I do know of, and they're doing all kinds of unbelievable work. That's strengthening people's capacity to show up, hold space, but they don't need to call it IDG, you know, it's like, it's basically human wisdom and human practice.
Yeah, it really
Sarah: is. There's one more topic I'd like to address and it's this idea of caring, um, in humane marketing. I say humane marketing is for the generation that cares for ourselves, our clients and the planet. So what does caring look like for you? Because you seem to have a bit of a nuanced way to caring and it obviously relates to [00:27:00] sustainability as well.
So talk to us about caring.
Renee: That's a great question. And it is the topic of the book I'm working on right now, which is literally called a field guide for people who care. I love that. So, you know, basically the way I approach care is, um, that care is, our care is a very fragile, it's very fragile and sensitive and sort of, you know, that, that each one of us as human beings.
Have profound capacity to care about whatever, you know, about life, about other people, about ourselves, about, you know, animals or plants or, you know, like the expression of care. I think we need to, um, kind of unleash our. Limits on what care is, what isn't, what it [00:28:00] looks like. And the reason why is because I spent 30 years in the environmental sustainability and climate sector, hearing people around me constantly saying, Oh, well, people don't care because if they cared, they would do something about it.
And I absolutely disagreed, but I didn't know why. And so that's why I ended up spending all this time doing research and, you know, interviewing people and all this stuff, because I. I suspected that wasn't accurate. And what I found through talking with lots of people around the world is obviously people care very deeply.
And I don't care what your condition is. I mean, seriously, I don't care if you are living on the street and you, you are preoccupied with your own basic survival. As a human being, you care about being alive. You care about often, um, others and animals and, [00:29:00] you know, like, so there is a fundamental care that's there that is expressed.
Some people care deeply about ocean reefs. Some people care deeply about a microbe. Some people care deeply about. Knitting, I'm just like, whatever, but my point is that if we feel like, you know, there's something that's interfering with our ability to express that care, we will retract it. We will pull it back in and it will kind of go underground or it will get trans trans.
It'll get applied in other ways. Like people I would interview in the Midwest United States would tell me all the environmental issues. They cared very deeply about and then they would say, but there's not a whole lot. I can do about it. So I'm going to focus instead on my garden and my family and what I eat, you know, because those things I have control over right now.
Does that mean. That that person doesn't care [00:30:00] about the, the water in the region. And so that's where I'm, what I'm saying. We've got to shift our, um, miss. About care, you know, that somehow if you care, you're going to do something about it. The question is, how do we. Unlock and kind of access people's care by affirming, yes, of course we see you and we know that you care very deeply.
Now let's figure out how we can help you express that. That as a marketing strategy is the goal. That's it. That is the marketing strategy is literally, it is communicate with people as if they already care. Like that's it. There's my book. There's your campaign. Just go for it.
Sarah: I love that. Yeah, it's not assuming nobody cares, but on the, on the opposite, it's assuming they care.
And I guess also what you said is like, well, [00:31:00] figuring out what they deeply care about, because when I talk about the SDGs with in programs or things like that, I always say, well, Obviously, yes, they're all important topics, right? We can all agree to that, but not everybody, not each person cares about the same things very deeply.
And so, you know, there is this difference also about what we care about, um, more than others. And so, um, yeah, figuring that out and talking to
Renee: those ones. The movement has got to get more sophisticated and nuanced right as soon as possible because it's very simplistic right now, and I will just say, especially.
Those working in marketing and brand strategy, no offense, but there's just a pervasive way of thinking and working. That's no longer appropriate for the time we're in now, which is that we've got to be more [00:32:00] nuanced and much more attuned. And much more relational to what people care about, why and how and, and just like go right there, which is again, bringing in that, like you just said, like, here's a menu of all the things going on in the world.
It might be very overwhelming, but what do you feel most called to? Right. Okay. Well, if you feel called towards animals and their animal welfare, then great. It doesn't mean you don't care about everything else, but you know, it's like, let's. Honor where the energy is.
Sarah: Yeah, it's human to want to relate on that human level and not be robots that like everything, right?
That care about everything, right? Yeah, I can totally relate to that. Um, you also on your website talk about these, the three A's, which I believe are anxiety. Ambivalence, ambivalence and, and, um, aspiration is it right? So really finding out [00:33:00] what drives people, um,
Renee: in their care. Yeah, exactly.
Sarah: I, I, uh, I like that a lot.
Yeah,
Renee: powerful stuff. It's very useful for people who do work in, you know, marketing and brand strategy. Yeah.
Sarah: I can't, can't wait for that book. So keep working. Thank
Renee: you.
Sarah: Wonderful. Well, any last words for people? I always say at the end of each episode, I say, you know, listeners, humane marketers are change makers before we are marketers.
So any last words that you would like to share with the change makers that are listening?
Renee: Um, Transcribed Well, 1, check out project inside out and my website. Um, so there's Renee Lertzman dot com and then there's project inside out has like tools and it's a little dated right now. So I just want to acknowledge that.
Um, but I would check it out. And if you like it and are excited by it, you [00:34:00] know. Get in touch. Um, we're actually looking at how to evolve it into a program, like an actual, like you said, year long program. I would like to evolve it into a year long program for guiding change. Um, and my, my, I guess, you know, I would just say inviting people who identify as change makers to really identify as being guides.
And what does it mean to be a guide and really learning about guiding, you know, that it's, you know, what, what does that involve? Um, and, and it's a more powerful way of showing up, but it's also takes a lot of the pressure off you because it's no longer all on you to try to get people to do anything.
It's really about how do we enable guide partner. Kind of help contribute to the conditions for people to go there. And then the other thing I would just say is acknowledge that this work can be overwhelming and tiring and sometimes lonely. And [00:35:00] it's really important that. You get the support and connection that you need with nature, other people, whatever that is, um, is really important.
Sarah: Yeah, thanks so much. I always have one last question and that is what are you grateful for today or this week, Renee?
Renee: Um, I'm grateful that I have, you know, the ability to, you know, live in a place that is safe. And, um, there's nature and, um, yeah, I mean, I'm just grateful for really simple things right now.
Mm-Hmm.
Sarah: Yeah. Thanks so much for being here and being my guest. This was
Renee: to Thank you, . Yeah. I'm grateful for you and for having this conversation. Thank you.
Sarah: I hope you [00:36:00] enjoyed this episode as much as I enjoyed recording it with Renée and got some great value from listening in. You can find out more about Renée and her work at renéelaertsman. com as well as the link projectinsideout. com And if you are looking for this community for others who think like you, then why not join us in the Humane Marketing Circle? You can find out more at humane. marketing forward slash circle. And, uh, we'd love to have you there to have these deeper conversations about the transformation that we're currently finding ourselves in and what it has to do with marketing. You can find the show notes of this episode at humane.
marketing forward slash H M 1 7 9. And on this beautiful page, you'll also find a series of free offers, such as the Humane Business Manifesto and the free Gentle Confidence [00:37:00] mini course, as well as my two books, Marketing Like We're Human and Selling Like We're Human. Thanks so much for listening and being part of a generation of marketers who cares for yourself, your clients, and the planet. Cause we are change makers before we are marketers. So go be the change you want to see in the world. Speak soon.